On ne savait pas ce que le produit serait comme, ce qui se réserve.
Et donc, on a essayé.
Et on a fait ça 7 fois de la erreur.
On a évoqué 7 versions de ce produit que nous pensions que ça pourrait résoudre.
Ce n'était pas un marché productif, ils ne fonctionnaient pas.
Et le 8e fait ça.
Et donc, j'ai voulu avoir fait ça sur le jour 1.
Ça aurait fait le prochain 18 mois beaucoup plus facile.
Bonjour, bienvenue à la podcast de DevTools FM.
C'est un podcast de développeurs et les gens vont les faire.
Je suis Andrew et je suis ma co-host Justin.
Bonjour tout le monde, nous sommes vraiment excitées de voir Danny Grant.
Danny est le co-founder de Jam.dev.
Nous sommes tellement excitées de vous voir.
Et la Jam.dev est un produit super fun.
C'est assez excitant de voir ça se développer.
Mais avant de nous en faire,
pouvez-vous nous dire un peu plus sur vous-même?
Absolument, merci beaucoup pour avoir moi.
Je suis un fan.
Donc, mon co-founder et je rencontre comme managers productifs à Cloudflare.
Nous sommes les 2 p.m. qui sont taskés à lancer des nouveaux entreprises pour la compagnie.
Il y aura des risques de se dévergir beaucoup de attention à la compagnie.
Mais, oh, quelqu'un a dû essayer ça.
Nous sommes les 2 p.m. qui ont launché Cloudflare Workers.
Ils ont launché 1.1.1.1, si vous êtes intéressés à Cloudflare.
Et c'était là qu'ils se sont allés super vite.
Nous avons réalisé que l'énergie de l'énergie était en train de se dévergir à la compagnie.
En tant que manager,
quand vous reportez un bug pour un engineer,
vous, le personne qui a vu le bug,
vous pensez que vous vous donnez à l'engineur tous les contextes qu'ils ont besoin.
Mais en réalité, ils ont ouvert le ticket.
Et il n'y a pas d'informations pour les gens de repos.
Ils sont totalement bloqués.
Vous allez en faire un petit peu de temps.
Et quand vous travaillez dans une compagnie,
vous avez de l'air de croire dans l'eau pour évoluer les choses.
Vous n'y arrêtes pas et vous pensez,
« On doit construire des outils pour nous aider,
et communiquer mieux avec les ingénieurs. »
Et ça fait un tout différent.
Nous avons donc quitté nos jobs et la compagnie est jam.
Nous avons maintenant aidé plus de 80 000 personnes
pour les bugs pour les développeurs.
En fait, c'est comme,
nous avons mis un clic pour les développeurs,
et c'est super clair et il a tout le besoin d'un développeur
pour réactionner le bug.
C'est vraiment cool.
Nous avons évidemment tous eu ce point de paix.
C'est intéressant comment les barrières de communication
entre les entreprises sont des opportunités.
Les barrières de communication entre les ingénieurs
et les ingénieurs,
et les ingénieurs et les ingénieurs,
et tout le monde d'autre dans l'organisation.
C'est un productement plus besoin.
C'est comme le problème de la transition Google.
Dans l'organisation,
nous avons tous des backgrounds très différents
selon ce que l'on est dans,
et nous avons tous utilisé un langage très différent
pour décrire les choses.
Les mots que l'on utilise pour décrire
une particularité ou un component,
sont vraiment différents que les mots
que l'on utilise pour décrire
la même page ou un component dans une compagnie.
Par exemple, un peu de mots,
on pense comme le correct mot,
sur le côté producte,
mais sur le côté ingénieur,
les mots et les mots ne sont pas très mêmes.
Par exemple, un PM peut dire
que ça n'a pas été correct.
Mais qu'est-ce que ça n'a pas été correct?
Pour l'ingénieur, ils ne savent pas
que la page se crasse,
que la note respond,
mais que la réponse incorrecte
n'était pas très proche de réact.
Ils pensaient que ce n'était pas l'un des choses

et que c'était juste de la state de dévigérisation.
Ce n'est pas le cas, c'est beaucoup de choses.
Et ça fait le bon sens,
que dans les différents fields,
dans une compagnie, on ne perd rien pour communiquer avec l'autre.
Oui, je peux définitivement résonner avec ça.
Je travaille par un peu de tickets où c'est comme, mais...
Comment vous avez fait ça ?
Je dois plus de ça.
Donc je peux définitivement voir le besoin pour le tool.
Mais avant de passer au tool,
quand je faisais mon research sur cet épisode
et mon genre, Nard,
je regarde dans quelqu'un's background,
je l'ai remarqué que votre vieille career
était juste comme, vous venez de domaine à domaine.
Vous étiez un intern de business, un intern de design,
un intern de software, un intern d'ad,
et puis vous êtes terminé comme le manager de projet
à Cloudflare.
Donc ça semble comme que vous avez sorti
par un travail à chaque partie de la compagnie,
un gâtelet, et puis vous êtes terminé comme le CEO.
Donc comment ça s'est passé ?
Et vous pensez que ces expériences
ont aidé vous comme le CEO ?
Je suis tellement heureux.
Donc quand je suis allé à la collège,
en fait, en déclenant un grand grand,
comme les personnes qui l'ont fait,
j'ai été dans un programme en NYU qui s'appelle Galatin,
qui vous permet de créer votre propre major.
Et ce qui m'a donné
était la flexibilité de changer mon mind
chaque semaine,
comme je l'avais étudiant.
Et la autre flexibilité qui m'a donné
est parce que je n'étais pas super inquiétante
en avoir besoin de prendre
10 classes de sciences de computer
et 3 classes de math.
J'avais assez de crédits
pour prendre des temps de la classe en school,
en faisant des internships.
Et donc ce que je serais en train de faire
est d'être dans la ville de New York.
Il y a beaucoup de compagnies
qui aiment ou la chaleur de la vie.
Et donc je change mon mind
sur ce que je pense que j'ai étudiant.
Je ferai des classes
dans ce nouveau genre que j'étais intéressé.
Et aussi aller en train de faire.
Et donc je pouvais vérifier pour moi-même
que j'ai vraiment aimé faire ça.
Je pense que souvent
on étudie un truc
et c'est très différent de étudier
et de faire ça comme profession.
Et la première fois qu'on voit ça en pratique
c'est après que nous étudions.
Et si vous êtes en train de faire
et que vous n'avez pas de temps pour faire
vous êtes un peu mal.
Parce que c'est vraiment difficile
de restarter une carrière.
Et ça sort de mal
si vous vous en faites en plus.
Mais ce temps en college
c'est comme la liberté de faire ça.
Donc j'ai été super, super heureux.
Maintenant sur la part de la start-up
le endroit que j'ai voulu
prendre plus de temps à apprendre
est sur le marché, la communauté,
la grossesse, la distribution de choses.
J'ai pris beaucoup de temps sur le côté product.
Mais en fait ce que je suis en train de apprendre
comme le founder
c'est que le product est vraiment important.
Mais les meilleurs produits ne sont toujours pas les meilleurs.
Parfois, c'est
c'est la compagnie avec la meilleure team de sales
avec la meilleure stratégie de marché.
Et donc je me sens comme si je jouais sur le travail.
Oui, on peut définir.
Andrew a fait un bon travail
de marketing dans le podcast.
Mais c'est un très difficile
à faire bien.
Et c'est tout à fait
comme si les gens ne sauraient pas
votre produit,
no matter comment c'est bon
n'importe qui va l'utiliser.
Je pense que
quand vous commencez une compagnie
une des choses que vous ne
ne vous appréciez plus avant
c'est que
le point que vous choisissez de commencer
sort de dédicite
comment vous allez faire de la temps.
Les gens parlent de
le marché fondateur.
Je pense qu'il y a un
très fort
coût de coût de coût
et le coût de coût de coût
où
si j'ai commencé
un autre type de coût
comme, on dirait que j'ai commencé
une coût que je vendais
à des écoles.
Je serais beaucoup plus d'heure
avec les lecteurs, avec les principes,
avec les admins,
comme
en personne à des écoles.
Mais nous avons commencé
une coût qui s'étend
à la production de produits.
C'est un produit qui s'étend
à la production de produits.
Je suis le coût de coût
et je suis le producteur.
Pour nous, c'est comme
le plus on peut focuster
sur le produit et nos utilisateurs
et construire quelque chose
qu'ils utilisent tous les jours
et l'amour,
le plus le produit se défend.
Et donc,
nous avons l'air de ce sort
de modèle qui suit
ce que nous aimons faire.
Mais c'est quelque chose que vous pensez
quand vous commencez une coût
sur le jour 1.
Nous aimerons que nous puissions
penser à notre première sponsor
de la semaine,
CodeCrafters.
CodeCrafters fait des
défis de programmation
pour des engineers de software.
Si vous cherchez une semaine
vraiment un projet de multi-week-end
qui vous donne la surface
de vos habilités de programmation,
vous devez les vérifier.
Ils ont un tout petit peu
d'interessants qui sont
où vous rebuildez
les technologies
que vous utilisez tous les jours.
Ainsi, j'ai essayé
de rebuilder Redis
et maintenant je suis en train de travailler
sur Git.
Une chose cool
c'est qu'ils ont un tout petit peu
de langues différentes
que vous pouvez choisir.
Donc vous pouvez aller
très vite dans une de ces langues
et vraiment apprendre
mieux.
Je choisis de faire un JavaScript
mais vous pouvez utiliser
des choses comme Rust and Go,

Dans ma opinion,
c'est beaucoup mieux
que d'aller sur le code
ou faire des autres
challenges de coding.
De la fois que je suis en train de
utiliser un deep dive
sur quelque chose
que j'ai déjà utilisé,
c'est vraiment utile
pour moi de comprendre
comment ça fonctionne.
Comme je suis en train
de construire
votre propre Challenge Git,
j'ai été constamment
surpris de toutes les manières
uniques que le protocole
choisit de coder les données.
Comme par exemple,
les files pack
sont un buffer
et le buffer
a un peu de lait
de la surface
et des portions
qui sont compressées
avec Zlib.
Donc j'ai vraiment été
d'être en train de travailler
avec les streams de buffer
et de chopper les données
en pensant sur le code
dans des manières
que je n'ai pas vraiment
depuis la collège.
Ainsi que le contenu,
même les expériences
sont targetées
pour l'expérience
des engineers d'offres.
Par exemple,
en fait,
en tapant un editor

qu'ils ont sur leur site,
utilise les tools
que vous avez aimé.
utilise votre IDE
utilise votre IDE
sur votre computer
et votre terminal 2.
Interactez avec les code-crafters
c'est comme si
vous en pouviez.
Si vous en pouviez,
ils vous renvient
et ils vous disent
si vous avez passé le challenge.
Pour essayer de faire des code-crafters
visite code-crafters.io
slash devtools-fm.
Là, vous allez avoir un discount
de 40%
et vous allez être aidés
à tous les uns et nous.
Si vous n'avez pas envie
de entendre ces ades,
vous pouvez devenir un membre
sur une de les plateformes
que nous offrons.
Avec ça,
vous avez les épisodes
un peu plus tard
et vous avez un mabfree.
Un autre moyen
de soutenir le podcast
est de aller vers
shop.devtools.fm
où vous pouvez acheter
des merches.
Et si vous voulez
devtools.fm
dans votre inbox,
vous pouvez aller vers
mail.devtools.fm
où vous pouvez abonner
à notre newsletter.
Vous allez avoir des updates
sur les cool choses
qui se passent
dans le monde de devtools.
Et quelques de nos
épisodes sont d'autres
sur l'épisode.
Et avec ça,
on va revenir
au épisode.
Donc,
maintenant que nous avons couvert
ça,
on va aller vers Jam
plus.
Vous nous avez donné
un petit preview
sur ce que la Jam est,
mais
quelle est la Jam
et pourquoi
j'ai envie de l'utiliser?
Jam est
le parfait
reportage de bug
pour les développeurs.
Si vous avez
réporté un bug
pour les engineers,
vous avez probablement
eu l'expérience
où
vous mettez
tous les détails
dans la ticket de Jira.
Et puis ils
ouvrent la ticket de Jira.
Ils disent
que ça fonctionne bien
à mon point de vue.
Et puis ils se mettent
dans la ticket de jam.
Donc,
la Jam
fait que
impossible.
Bébé,
vous ajoutez
votre browser.
Ça plie
dans les tools de devtools.
Et quand vous voyez
un bug,
vous cliquez sur la jam.
Ça prend
un instant
répli de ce qui
s'est passé.
Pas seulement
le dom
qui a été répliqué
comme un vidéo,
mais aussi
tout et le devtools
que le développeur
va avoir besoin.
Et tout le metadata
de votre session
et le device
et le hardware
et ce qui est l'ID de l'usage
et l'application
de tout le monde
dans un lien
pour les ingénieurs
ou dans une ticket.
Et de cette façon,
l'ingénieur
commence à travailler
sur un bug.
Ils ont tout
ce qu'ils ont besoin.
Il n'y a pas de
quarts et fortes.
Ils ne doivent pas
poser des questions.
Vous n'avez pas de
la share de la screen
et de trouver
les logs de console.
C'est juste
tout ce qui est là-bas.
On a Jason Lester
qui travaille sur
le répli et
le tool de débug.
De différents contextes.
Et j'ai toujours pensé
que ce genre
de valeur
de la contexte
est,
dans leur cas,
c'est comme
vous êtes débuggé
un problème
vraiment difficile.
Vous avez
le spéciale browser
que vous utilisez.
Vous devez
aller
dans beaucoup de choses.
Donc,
j'ai vraiment aimé
comment vous
vous intégrer
ce
vous savez
directement
dans le browser
ou l'extension browser.
Qu'est-ce que
que vous avez
à faire
pour
faire ce travail ?
Vous avez
dû prendre
un long temps
juste sur
le côté technique
et
à savoir
ce sont les bonnes
expériences
là-bas
ou
est-ce que
vous avez
naturellement
un moment
que vous avez
l'idée de
ce qu'on veut.
Donc,
j'ai voulu
juste
venir ensemble
sur le jour 1
et nous savions
exactement
ce que l'application
devrait être.
Mais ce qui a
passé,
mon co-founder
et moi
ont vu
ce problème
en première place
comme
les PMS
nous-mêmes.
La première chose
que nous avons faite
est que nous avons
fait 45 interviews
d'interviews
comme
à l'extérieur
de la gâte,
très
producteurs
qui ont commencé
une compagnie
pour valider
que c'est un
problème industriel
et pas
juste nous.
Mais
nous ne savons pas
que
sur ces interviews
nous savons
ce qu'on a besoin
de la solution.
Et qu'il y avait
beaucoup d'emotions
et d'infrastration
derrière ça.
Mais nous ne savons pas
comment.
Nous n'avons pas
ce que un produit
serait comme
ce qui se réserve.
Et donc,
nous avons essayé
et
nous avons fait
7 fois le coup.
Nous avons
envoyé 7 versions
de un produit
que nous pensions
se résoudre
ce problème.
Ce n'était pas
un marché productuel.
Ils ne fonctionnaient pas.
Et la deuxième
chose a été faite.
Et donc,
j'ai voulu
avoir fait
ce que nous avons fait
en première place.
Ça aurait été
le prochain 18 mois
beaucoup plus facile.
Qu'est-ce que les
interviendres
que vous avez étendus?
Donc, la première chose
que nous avons essayé
était
que nous pensions
qu'on va donner
des ingénieurs
de JavaScript
pour mettre
sur leur environnement de staging.
Et ce JavaScript
va transformer
l'environnement de staging
dans un service
plus collaboratif.
Donc,
tout le monde est
en train de faire
l'institut
et maintenant on peut
vous laisser
des commentaires sur le top.
Et
les PMs
sont super excitées
sur ça.
Et vous savez
ce que les ingénieurs
ne veulent pas?
C'est pour les PM
d'aller
et dire
que vous avez

ce JavaScript
dans votre environnement de staging.
Donc,
ça
n'a pas été

Alors,
ce qui fonctionne
est la partie de collaboration
mais pas
la delivery.
Alors,
qu'est-ce que nous avons
construit
une app
qui
râche
votre environnement de staging
et qui
fait un service
collaboratif
dans cette app
et vous pouvez
laisser des commentaires
sur le top.
Et ça
fonctionne
pour
un sub-settement
comme
si vous
vous vous en prenez
une page de land
pour vous
c'est un
bon expérience
pour ça.
Mais si vous faites
un
produit
qui a un
state d'application
quand vous vous vous couchez
vous ne vous en prenez
et vous vous re-loguez
dans la
app
et vous vous en prenez
un place
avec tous les
procédures
c'est
trop trop
pour vous
et donc
nous avons
gardé
l'intervention
la première fois
qu'on a
l'expérience de Chrome
c'est un peu plus
de usages
et nous avons
cette idée
qu'on est
sur la bonne route
mais le fait
que nous avons
un produit
qui est
une extension de browser
cliquer
répliquer
un clip
comme un lien
sur le clipboard
qu'on peut partager
avec les enjeuners
tout ce qu'ils ont besoin
c'est le
qui a vraiment
été
détenu.
C'est
très fascinant
quand
c'est une question
difficile à faire
quand
tu décides
pour chaque
temps
c'est comme
OK
le temps de
bouger
c'est comme
comment tu
tu as
fait
une certaine iteration
tu as dit
18 mois
ça peut
sembler
une longue dur
mais
pour
développer
c'est comme
7 variations différentes
de produits
et pour
dire
OK
on ne va pas continuer
ici
on va faire
quelque chose
différent
comment tu as
décidé
à chaque point
comme
non
ce n'est
ce n'est

le bon
point
je pense que
la partie la plus

c'est
de
continuer
sur le problème
et
de
trouver
un produit
qui
qu'il
se
quitter
ce
problème
avec
une solution

nous
nous
de l'autre
start-up
que nous
admièrent
que c'est
partie
de la
tour
mais c'est
une chose
pour savoir
ственant
une Spart





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jias
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onsider
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je

websites
et
se
counselors
pour
imento
a

un
un
petit
product that we like all use and love today.
We knew that Figma took a couple years to get to product market fit.
Slack, we all know it started as a gaming company,
but what many people don't know is even after they pivoted to Slack,
it still took another two years to get to product market fit.
And so we knew we were in the iteration phase of the company.
And we also knew like when you build a company,
you only get one chance to invent the product.
And after that, the rest of the company is just about scaling it.
Like if you think about the products that you use and love like Zoom,
like Slack, like Twitter,
they actually haven't changed very much since you started using them
maybe five or 10 years ago.
That's because once you hit product market fit,
you don't risk it by reinventing the product.
You just scale it.
And so we were sort of excited about this moment in the company.
We knew it was part of the journey,
but also like very psychologically difficult to just keep iterating and iterating.
Yeah, and then you have to live with what you come up with
if you do hit product market fit and you don't like it.
But that's a good problem to have.
That was one of the things,
that was very friend center for us.
One of the, you know, in startups, you hear all the time like
if you ask your users what they want,
they say a faster horse in your job is to build them a car.
And, you know, we built seven cars that failed.
And the eighth is honestly like what did users want
that they wanted a browser extension that did, you know,
what the product does today.
And we just listened to them for the eighth one
and it turns out they know exactly what they want.
I think that, you know, part of like the narrative in my mind was like,
no, we have to do something bolder and bigger.
You know, like, I don't want to get stuck doing something that feels very narrow.
And but now that we're in it, I see there's so much space to grow.
I think rather than the reality being like you get stuck doing the thing that works,
it's like once you're doing the thing that works and it's working,
your customers start to pull you in a lot of directions
and it gets a heck of a lot more exciting.
It's an awesome insight for sure.
It is like, I guess if you have like a love of the problem space
and you have just like opportunity everywhere,
it's like there's all these different areas that you can just make things a little bit better,
a little bit smoother, you know, solve this like slightly related problem,
do all these things.
It's kind of a fun time to be in.
It's especially fun when you love your user base.
Like, one of the other things that I wasn't thinking about on day one
as a first time founder is like whatever is the company you choose to build,
that's sort of how you're going to be spending your time for the next decade.
And we looked into like, we get to spend time with our users
who are all product people and engineers
and they're trying to change some corner of the universe with software.
Like, like that's so fun.
And so when you really like enjoy the people you get to talk to
about the product and jam with them,
then that becomes like very generative as you're talking about,
like where should this go?
Is that where the idea for like hackathons came from?
It's like we're building for these hackers.
So let's give them a place to hack and show our name too.
And, you know, it's funny,
every single person who signs up for the product
gets an email from my co-founder being like,
how's everything going?
And people think like this is like a bot
or like there's like a marketing intern behind it.
But no, this is like, the answer,
you just start chatting with Irtifa, my co-founder.
And what we learned from this is that our users are super chatty.
They want to talk about how they're building
and what tools they're using and like,
and and so then we thought,
well, what if we got them together and we started hosting events?
The first one actually was not a hackathon.
It was a night of engineering horror stories completely off the record.
Engineers coming together,
sharing how they've broken prod in the past.
It was super fun.
We got the idea from segment who used to hold events like this called SegFault.
And so we did our own take on that.
But now, now every month we're hosting three or four events
bringing together engineers, PMs,
sometimes for hackathons,
sometimes to share what they're building.
Yeah, that's great.
It flows back into the growth and marketing aspect
because it's like, I think there's a thing about like building products
that sometimes we can get to like,
there can be too much distance from the product that we're building
and the people that we're building it for.
And I think that there's something that like recognize the whole person,
the whole customer as like,
someone who's like has similar pain points
as you've had in the past.
I mean, I think you have to do this as a founder.
But the hard thing is,
is like how do you get the engineers on your team,
the people building the product,
to have that same level of like deep empathy
and I bet events like this are a good way to do that.
What you're saying about like recognizing your users as whole people
is so true.
One huge change we saw coming out of COVID
is when we started the company,
it was like lockdown time.
And so we met all of our users over Zoom.
And then as soon as the world started opening up,
we started meeting our users in person.
And the level of conversation was immediately transformed
where when you're on Zoom,
everything feels very transactional
and the conversations were all about sort of like
how they were using the product
or maybe we would ask a couple of broader questions.
It was sort of very tacked.
Like the conversations were very much like Q&A.
When we started meeting our users in person,
we started learning about how they use the product
and sort of what it means to them at like a social dynamic.
Like at every company,
there are these sort of dynamics that happen within the team.
We learned about like PMs
who are working with a brand new engineering manager
and like how Jam is helping them communicate
without having like this shared work history.
They've never worked together before
or like we'll learn like, oh, it's a new PM.
It's their first time in a tech job
and this is a tool that helps them like be good at the job
and like look like an insider
even though they're trying to like figure things out on the fly.
Like once we started meeting users in person,
a lot more of the stories came out
became really, really important.
So before we move on to like asking more
about like leadership questions,
I want to drill down into the product a little bit more.
So we kind of glossed over it,
but you said when you click the jam button,
it just like gives you what just happened.
What do you guys call that feature and how does it work?
It's called instant replay
because it's like instant replay in sports.
It grabs the last 30 seconds of the DOM
played back like a video
plus everything in console logs,
network requests,
all of the waterfall of timing.
It grabs all of the session details
like what device and hardware and OS you're on,
but also custom metadata like user ID
and what experiments a user is in
and then packages all up into a link.
Do you know how the DOM replay works?
Like you mentioned a JavaScript library
that had to be included on the page in version one.
Does the Chrome extension
include like similar code in the page when you run it?
Exactly that.
And then snapshots the DOM
and looks for changes
and then plays it back like a video.
If you're familiar with tools like full story or hot jar,
that's how they all work as well.
That's really cool.
So you also have a jam GPT.
What's that all about?
What does that do for you?
So once chat GPT came out,
we started seeing something really funny
which was engineers who were receiving jams
were copy pasting the errors from jam into chat GPT
and asking it how to solve them.

And so we were like,
well, that's silly.
Why don't we prompt it for you?
Like let's just save you some time.
And so we brought chat GPT into jam
and we prompt it with all the information we know
about the web app and the errors.
And then it saves you a search.
It tells you where to look.
And then if you give it some code,
it will fix it for you.
This feels like tip of the iceberg for me.
Like it is so clear that two years from now,
the way we do debugging will be completely transformed with AI
and like isn't the dream
you connect your repo to jam
and then it just proposes a PR
and then the engineer can get the bug report.
They propose PR,
maybe make some changes and the
or like just call it a day.
So if anyone is listening
and wants to be part of building that,
we are hiring go to jam.dev
slash careers.
I would love to meet people excited about that.
And the name that you guys have,
the domain name is perfectly set up
for that jam space dev.
We'd like to thank our second sponsor
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Yeah, that's so good.
Um,
so let's let's switch to talking about
the company a little bit more.
I'm super just like fascinated
by your founder journey
for somewhat selfish reasons,
but also just like in general.
So first, I want to say congrats
on the series a
that's a big milestone
that was super exciting here
and you have some
some really, really good investors
on the cap table.
So some folks from Figma
you got Guillermo was
was investors.
So this is all cool.
So like,
how was that journey
to getting to series a
I'm hyper interested
in funding conversations now,
but was it sort of like natural?
Like after you found
your, you know,
product market fit
or you're like getting into that
that like the sort of investor
interest just like kind of
naturally grew from there
or you're like really having to
you know,
I don't know
preach the vision
of like what we're doing here.
We we are super, super lucky
on the funding front
not only to get to work
with like really incredible people.
Like even behind the firms
that invested as part of the A
like they have helped
the companies that we admire
and look up to
and hope to build a company like
you know, from beginning to IPO
and and we also really lucked out
that it was inbound
and preempted
and like driven by excitement
for I guess what we're building.
But before starting jam
I worked at a VC firm
called usv
where I would do mostly like
early stage
and through this
I've seen
100 something founders pitch
and so then being
on the other side
there were like a couple
of like tips and tricks
that that I used
from being on the VC side
that I would use
on the founder side
I would love to share
with your listeners
when you're going out to pitch
like a couple of tips.
I go for it.
I will say
the funding market is like
extremely tough right now
and so if you remember like
do you remember the boat
that was stuck
in the Suez Canal
and then there was the meme
of the little digger
that was like trying to get it out
so these tips are about
as helpful as that little digger
like like the actual roadblock
is the market
and this is like
nice polish on top.
One thing
that a lot of founders
don't realize
when they go out to pitch
is they think it's a lot
or especially like early stage
like seed stage especially
they think it's a lot
about what they're building
and sort of like
how great of a business
this will be.
Of course
that's a huge part of it
but what a lot of founders
don't think about
is what
what is the role
of the pitch meeting?
What do they need to deliver
and part of
what you need to deliver
is a great meeting
like
if
if you succeed
and you end up
working with a VC
you're going to work together
for like a decade plus
and so both sides
are trying to see like
do we enjoy working together?
It's sort of like
a hiring call
and so
one framework
that's really helpful
for founders
is to think
I am in the business
of delivering a great meeting
what's a great meeting
and if you have that framework
it can help answer
a lot of the questions
that you have
about how to run the meeting
like
if you're really good
over Zoom
then meet over Zoom
if you're better in person
meet in person
if
if you're
if you're like
an engaging person
don't screen share
your deck
because that takes you
from being
the center of the frame
to you being this tiny face
in the corner
and like
them feeling like
they're in a webinar
the worst part of every Zoom
is the first like
five minutes
where you like
talk about where you're located
and what the weather
currently is
like just skip it
don't do it
like if you're in the business
of giving a good meeting
come and prepared
with something to say
so when they ask
how are you
like
tell them exactly
what's happening in your day
like tell them
the most interesting
part of your day
like
we're building this new feature
and I'm really excited about it
and I'd love to share it with you
or
I just got a customer call
and I learned something new
can I tell you about it
and then like
so that way
just get into the call
and get into what you want to share
and don't like make it
this awkward start
where you have to like
transition over to like
can I pitch you now
yeah that
that sort of natural conversation
is is hard to pull off
you know
especially if you're not used to doing it
but is
you can definitely tell
like
you're talking about interviews
this is something that you can definitely tell
like when somebody comes in
and they're at ease
in the interview
it just
flows
and you
you're
this is hard process
which seems like
it should be really hard
a lot of times
with someone who's like
you know
good and confident
they know what they're doing
and they
have sort of been through
process before
you just feel like
you're in a conversation
for an hour
instead of like
you know
really trying to
dig down
and it can make all the difference
in the world
so
that's a great tip
another way to think about this
is
if you've ever been a hiring manager
like you've ever interviewed someone
who's looking for a job
you can like
remember back to
what made those conversations
great
why did you want to work with someone
versus
why did you maybe
not want to work with someone
one thing that's very sort of
delicate
when you're fundraising
is about timing
so
if you've ever interviewed someone
for a job
and you're like
what's your timing like
and they're like
I don't know like
I'm just kind of interviewing
with you right now
like
you
it's cool
it's just
there's no urgency
versus
if they're like
I'm in a
I'm in a couple
like
final conversations
I'll probably make a decision
this or next week
you're like suddenly
you're like
OK wait
I've got to make some moves
in
in funding
if you think about being investor
like
you're sort of incentivized
to get all the information possible
before you make a decision
so if there is nothing
like
prompting you to
be urgent act right now
you're actually probably more incentivized
to wait
and see what happens
and so
it's really helpful as a founder
if you can
instead of like
fundraising
raisin passively
just see what happens
if you can just
actively like
put all your meetings
in the same week
even if you schedule
a couple weeks out
but you sort of do it
as a fast process
that way
when you're on these calls
there's like a reason
for people to act
it's like
what's happening now
and so the question is
do you want to be part of it
or not
because I've got all these other
conversations going to
you know
yeah
so those two tips
are around like
kind of just like
being prepared
and setting the environment
for which you can
get that investment
so like
do you have any tips
for like
like when you're actually
pitching
like what you should
focus on
or anything like that
Yes
and
I mean
you should talk about
your business
you should talk about
what
what it is you're building
proof that it works
why are the person
to do it
and
and
and you should like
get those things
sort of out of the way
first
like
if someone doesn't know
what it is
you're building
they're not listening to
they're just trying to
figure out
they're playing catch up
but
the
like a pro tip
on top
is
sometimes
what you're building
there's a lot to say
about it
and you can get
really in the weeds
but
oftentimes
you'll be asked
a question
just to see
if you've
thought about something
and they actually
don't need the full answer
especially when
it's early
and they know
everything might change
and so one
hack
you can do
is to keep
your answer short
by saying
by giving
like a framework
like
if you get
asked about
monetization
you can be like
we think about
in a couple
different ways
most likely
we'll do this
but happy to go
into it
more if you want
and that way
it's like
all very concise
Yeah
I think
there's
there's something
that I've
like seen
a little bit
in the people
that I've
talked to
is that
if you're
trying to
get to the answer
for everything
just like
figure out
what the correct
thing is
it seems like
you can
you can really
go off
and rabbit
holes
and you're
the worst
thing
that you can do
is like
come up
with something
as you're
talking
you know
it's like
you're
in the middle
of the conversation
to ask you
about the question
you're like
it's a good question
um
here's
you know
kind of what
we're thinking
so
how do you
like
what is the advice
that you have
for people
in a really
early stage
that are
still trying
to sort of
figure out
you know
maybe they know
the problem
that they're
hitting
but the
you know
there's still
a lot of questions
about what
the market
is like
what the shape
of the product
should be
like
you know
think back
to yourself
in some of
those early
product
iterations
where you
kind of
knew what you're
doing
but like
kind of
still trying
to figure it out
like
what do you
how do
those people
have the conversation
imagine
I gave each
one of you
like
100K
I don't have
that to give
you
but imagine
and I was like
hey
you get to invest
in
like
you get to use
this and invest
in early
stage
founders
at the
earliest
stage
before
anything
is working
and so
you're like
great
so then
you go out
and you
go meet
with a bunch
of early
stage
founders
where
nothing is
working
it's like
what would
get you
so excited
that you'd
give them
a portion
of that
100K
and
and actually
you don't
really need
to see
something
working
cause you
know
things
are early
but
you need
you need
a
cohesive
story
for
why
this is
going to
work
like
if someone
showed up
and was like
I don't know
I'm kind of
like
experimenting
you're not
going to
leave
very excited
but
if someone
shows up
and is like
I'm obsessed
with this
problem
here
all the things
I've tried
so far
here's why
it doesn't
work
here's what
I'm going
to try
next
I am not
giving up
until
we
solve
this
and here's
why
it matters
to me
you're
like
whatever
let's
figure this
out
like
I'm in
c'est
great
so
what are some
what's some advice
that
you'd gotten in the past
for start-up
founders
that
you may be
tried to apply
and just
hasn't
panned out
one of the
pieces of advice
we had to learn
the hard way
may have
not
aged
well
with startups
is
there's this
15 year old
saying
which is
if you're
not embarrassed
by the first
version of your
product
you've shipped
too late
you guys
heard this
yeah
absolutely
around the time
Reid Hoffman
was saying it
was
about the time
that Facebook
was releasing
its first
mobile app
like
a lot has changed
in the world
since then
like
we have mobile
and we have remote
and actually
our
lives are
pretty much
running on software
and so while
15 years ago
if a software
wasn't
perfect
you might still
use it
in today's
world
you really
cannot afford
that
like
I cannot afford
social
capital
of
bringing
in a tool
to the workplace
that
might not
work for everyone
like
I just
can't
even if
it's
super cool
or
I can't
use an email
tool
if
it sends 98%
of the emails
I think I sent
I just
can't
and so the bar
for quality
is a lot
higher
today
than it
was then
so what I think
the saying
gets right
is
you do have
to move
fast
and the way
to do that
with high
quality
is
to limit
your scope
right
like
choose
one thing
and just
do small
scope
high
quality
let's go
but the thing
that I think
it gets
wrong
is this idea
that you can
ship
fast
and messy
and actually
test
whether software
works
when
we did the first
seven
iterations
of jam
the ones
that
failed
we were
like
ship
things
see
what happens
duct tape
together
we heard
you'll know
you have
product
market
fit
if people
are willing
to jump
through hoops
and use
a buggy
product
but
nowadays
that just
isn't
true
and actually
one of the things
that we
changed
and I think
one of the reasons
why the
eighth
version of jam
worked
is because
it was
the first
time
that
we didn't
ship
until
it was
actually
kind of production
ready
like
we didn't
ship
with bugs
we took
a little bit longer
and that made
for us
all the difference
yeah
users
have very high
expectations
of software
this
these days
and
a buggy
prop
products
will make
them quit
I've
been recently
going through
similar things
of the
company
I work
at
Descript
and
we're
we're having
to make
a lot of
changes
culturally
to make
sure that
like
what
production
ready
is
has
a
very
defined
meeting
Descript
is such
a
fantastic
tool
by the way
one of the other
like
things
that we
that we
kind of got
wrong
I think
around
quality
is
so
we'd
hear
like
it's like
standard
start-up
advice
which is
you don't
know
what's going
to happen
until
users
use your
product
so we would
ship
early stuff
and just
like
launch it
on product
ton
and then
a bunch
of users
would
come in
but then
chasing
those users
to get
insights
later
was actually
quite difficult
like
if you've
ever used
a product
for like
one second
and then
stopped
using it
you're
not answering
emails
from
the founder
of that
product
it's
really hard
to get
disappoint
them
and you
actually don't
know
that much
you just
don't
know
you tried
it
so
it was
really really
hard to get
insights
one thing
we changed
for the
eighth
flavor of jam
that we shipped
and I think
one of the reasons
why it worked
is
we were
the only
first
customers
of it
and we
iterated on it
for our
internal
use
and we
didn't
let a single
external
person
use it
until
it was
good
enough
for
us
and this
sounds
so
counterintuitive
because
our customers
are not jam-sized
companies
like
like
they're large corporations
and
but
it turns out that
even within large corporations
there are
jam-sized
teams
and so
how we use the product
wasn't
that different
than how
they were using the product
and in those
couple weeks
where it was just
like
for our
own internal use
those iteration cycles
were super
fast
because we knew
exactly what
was wrong with it
we learned
a lot more
and made the product
a lot better
and that time
versus
every other time
we had like
shipped a beta
out to users.
Did you guys
also do like
user research
stuff
after that
like
to like
verify
what
your learnings
before you
released it
to the wider public?
So
what we did
for the 8th one
is we didn't
release it
to the wider public
for a really long time
instead of
like
let's see
who uses it
we decided
to be more
focused
and quiet
and have
a hypothesis
to test
and our hypothesis
was really basic
it was like
people
who
work at
companies
that have
these attributes
who do this type
of role
should find a lot
of benefit
with this product
and they should
use it every week
and so
we posted on a couple
of slacks
on subreddits
we said
hey
we're building
this thing
we're looking
for people
who match
this profile
to test it
like
let us know
if you want to be
an early tester
and not
that many people
reached out
but we only
needed five
and
and so
we
we onboarded
those
five
first testers
and
and we just
kept track
of streaks
did they
use the product
every week
and that was
the only
thing that mattered
because
if they use
the product
every week
then we have
product market
fit with them
and so
from there
we're like
hey
we have
five
happy
weekly
active users
let's get to
10
and then
15
and 20
and once
once we're like
okay
there are 20
people in the world
who are using
this every week
we decided
to open it up
to the world
but we still
didn't do
like
crazy product
launch
we decided
to be able
to
like
just
kind of
quieter
but what actually
happened
was
on that day
we swapped
our join
the waitlist
button
for a sign-up
button
for the product
and
just randomly
there's this
like
French
YouTube
show
where they
pitch
other people's
startups
it's called
like
La Pitch
or something
and
someone
pitched jam
and so
that night
like
we woke up
the next day
and there were
200
French people
using
the product
which was
so fantastic
and the product
started growing
from there
that's awesome
that's
that's
such an
exciting story
how did you
decide
like
like
why
why five
in the beginning
was it
just like
to keep it
like
meaningfully
small
and so
you could have
a relationship
with them
and like
actually
learn
or was it
just like
this is
just a
starting point
well
the goal
of the company
was to have
more than
five
you
rate
so
it always
had to be
a starting
point
but
it kept
things really
focused
for us
and that
we could be
really
really
close to
those users
when
one thing
that's
funny is
you know
at that point
like
the company
had been
through
18 months
of pivot
so
they're kind of
it felt
like
there was
like
an established
company
from
the outside
and those
users
didn't realize
how
early
they were
but what they did
think was really
strange is
every time
they went on vacation
or had a sick day
they'd hear from
my co-founder
being like
is everything
okay with the product?
That's funny
As a CEO
what do you think
you should do
to grow
and facilitate
like
a culture
like this?
So my dream
for jam
is
for the company
to
feel
like
if you've ever done
musical theater
in high school
you guys
are nodding
this is awesome
Did you really?
No
it didn't do musical theater
but I was
adjacent
so
Just nodding
I know the stereo
type of referencing
It's so generative
it's like
everyone comes together
and like
brings together
all these ideas
and you're
and like
the whole focus
is on
let's put on a great show
for the people
who have showed up
it's like
that's what
the joy of building
a product is
right
like
let's put on something
great
for the people
who have shown up
to use this
and so that's
that's the dream
I think
I think in reality
there
there are two things
you can do
to make that happen
one is
you hire people
who think this way
right
and so
at Jam
I'm so lucky
I work with these
amazing
quirky
hilarious
kind
like
just
awesome
hardworking people
from all over the world
they rock
but the second is
I think you really
have to work on yourself
because it turns out
like
like
you
you as a founder
can get in the way
of a lot of that happening
the more you care
about the company
like
Jam
Jam took
18 months
of iteration
just to figure out
what we're building
now we're building
a thing
that's working
and growing
every week
most weeks
are record weeks
and there's a part
of my brain
that's like
don't drop the ball
like it's working
now
don't let it go
you know
and so
my tendency
is to want to like
be involved in everything
and control everything
felt like
what a terrible
company to work at
like
that's not
what anyone wants
and so
and so I work
with an executive coach
and I'm also
constantly
asking
the team
for feedback
because
I want to make sure
that I'm giving them
space
to go and run
and build something
that
like
they truly
feel proud of
and think is awesome
without me
like
interfering
every second
so yeah
so hire
great people
get out of the way
and work on yourself
to do so
that's great advice
let's transition
a little bit
and talk
about the future
so
you've
you've
raised around
which is
is amazing
so what's your
next big
milestone
for Jam
we're just getting started
there's so much
to do
like
everywhere
software engineers
and p.m.s
are going back
and forth
while building
product
like
that is time
we want to give them
back
to build
what's next
so
you should expect
from jam
announcements
around
mobile debugging
that's a huge
area for us
one day
for teams
building desktop apps
there's a lot
that we want
to do
with AI
we're like
watching to see
LLM's progress
and like deciding
when is the right
time for us
to build
like co-gen
into the product
but I'm really excited
about that front
one of the really cool
ways that
our users
have been sort of
like
hacking the product
to do something
it wasn't built
to do
is
they're sort of
using jam
in customer support
workflows
even though
today it requires
asking customers
to install
Chrome extensions
which
like
what a surprising
experience
if you're like
in intercom
chatting with a
customer support
rep
and they're like
could you add
this Chrome extension
to your browser
and report
this bug
for me
so expect
some announcements
about how to do
that
a better way
but yeah
so much to build
that's interesting
that people
are using it
that way
I could imagine
you guys
almost like
labeling it
like a
white labeled
sort of
Chrome extension
where it's like
oh
here's
d scripts
bug reporter
oh
that's
so cool
yeah
um
yeah
it sounds like
you guys
have some cool
plans
I'm excited
to see
where you go
with the
the
AI stuff
there's
a lot of stuff
happening
in that area
right now
and it's
just so cool
to see
like everybody
iterate
and
make all these
cool things
it's
what a time
to like
be in the software
space
yeah
I've
I've heard people
saying
like
you
you can see
both sides of it
where some people
are like
oh
AI is here
I don't have to
learn how to
code anymore
that's
like a
dead job
but it's
like
it's the opposite
AI has enabled
like software development
to be
easier
like
all those
hard edges
that were there
when like
we were learning
like
5-10 years ago
they're
kind of just
melting away
and you can
now just
like
easily
like
run free
with coding
and like
not hit
any speed bumps
it's really exciting
it also
really changes
is
I think
who is going to be compelled
to be a software engineer
because
once AI
can do
like
within the file
then you become
the architect
of the files
if that makes sense
and so
the focus of the engineer
can be a lot
more product driven
like a lot more
like design
UX
and a lot more
like
architecting systems
and thinking about
how should
how can we build
this to scale
and be
like
reliable
and perform
and all these things
versus like
I need to build
a function
that does x
like
I think
a different set
of people
will be joining
software engineering
than maybe
what's
who's joining today
Yeah, like
I can't even imagine
doing coding
back in like
the 70s
cause it would be like
I'd hit a bug
there's no internet
you have to go
find somebody
in like a library
I guess
to ask a question to
like
it just seems
so impossible
but now we have like
a full human
corpus of all knowledge
on the internet
that you can just query
it's crazy
it's crazy
by the way
a cool like
70s
anecdote on bugs
so
Bill Gates
got his first career
like
first job
in software
reporting bugs
for deck
I think
and he reported them
on paper
Oh wow
industry has come
such a long way
Yeah
it is
I think it's continually
amazing
to see
how far
the industry has come
and like
it's just the other thing
is like
so one of the things
that I like about
LLMs in general
is just like
you can ask
an LLM
a question
and you're not
worrying
about being judged
and that's like
such a
really
important thing
so there's no amount
there's like
no number of stupid questions
that you can ask an LLM
and ever like
you know
get the judgment
but
if you think about
like
some of the early days
is like
going on these like
you know
heavy
program
or centric
forums
or something
and then
you know
even stack
overflow
right
you ask a question
and people are like
you know
flaming you
for asking it
wrong
and you're like
oh god
oh
I asked one question
I'll stack overflow
never ask a question
again
right
so
you know
I
I like that
that the industry
is becoming softer
around the edges
and I think
tools like jam
are
the things that
make it
you know
make it easier
for us to get there
just like
yeah
so it's cool
that's super cool
one similar
like
cool use of
co-pilot
I heard
so
engineers at jam
using co-pilot
and I was asking
like
hey
what's
helpful
like
curious
as a non-engineer
and one of the things
that I heard is
so
there are a couple of people
at jam
that
they speak English
at jam
but then with their friends
and family
for the rest of the day
they speak a different language
because they don't live
in the US
and so one of the
like
rather challenging things
as an engineer
no matter
where you live
in the world
is naming variables
and co-pilot
helps them
name variables
in English
in a way
that's super
like
concrete
and clear
and they don't have to
like
rack their brain
for like
what would you call
this in English
I thought that's
super cool
that is a
really awesome
message
yeah
so
so many cool things
so
on the podcast
we always like
to
ask a future
facing question
about like
the field
the person is in
and so
for you
that looks like
collaboration
so like
what do you think
the future of collaboration
looks like
for product teams
there's going to be
a lot more collaborating
with AI agents
for sure
and a lot of
AI agents
collaborating
with each other
with no humans
in the loop
which is going to be
wild
but I think that
if there are humans
using the product
they're always
going to be humans
working on the product
and
and that
and with AI
we're going to be able
to ship
so much more
that actually
getting those
collaboration
loops
between people
to be faster
and more efficient
less frustrating
is going to be
more and more
important
one of the cool
things about working
in DevTools
and like
building for
software builders
is
in our world
today
software powers
almost every experience
like
even if you go to
a brick and mortar
place
like a hospital
or a school
there's still
software
under the surface
and so
actually
the faster
we can
like build
new features
the faster
the world changes
which is
really
really cool
and so
we're going to be
able to ship
a lot more
things
as an industry
and if
that is true
then we need
be able to do
a lot more
feedback cycles
like
very seamlessly
Yeah
I agree
there's
always going to be
room for humans
because
you
you
you
you
X
it's not like
a science
like even
accessibility
it's not a science
you can't follow
formula
and get a good
experience
out in the end
you still need
like a person
going
oh yeah
that is good
really
okay
with that
let's move over
to tool tips
so my
tool tip
of the week
is a project
called
classy
Inc
it is
a way
to add
tailwind
to your
react
Inc apps
for the people
who don't know
react
Inc
is a renderer
for
CLI apps
where
you can
you can
ride a CLI app
and something
that looks
kind of like
react
and it
renders
in your
terminal
styling
those things
is
was of course
relegated
till the
the platform
primitives
for the
terminal
to style
things
which
are not
not the easiest
things
to work with
so
they created
a
tailwind
style approach
that
works for
the terminal
and that's
that's basically
it
you can
add
tailwind classes
it looks
just like
normal
tailwind
code
but what
it spits
out
in the end
in the end
is a
terminal
app
so
I think
that's
super cool
and
I'm excited to
see more stuff
like this
as we
merge
all the
react
runtimes
that's
super
awesome
I love
that
next up
we have
LSD
yeah
so
I've had a theme
on the podcast
of like
replacing
all my
traditional
tools
with
tools
written in rust
and so
here's
another one
so
LSD
is a replacement
for
LS
it's actually
LS Deluxe
is kind of
what it's
stands for
not the
not the drug
anyway
it
it like
gives a really
nice experience
one of the things
that I love
that it does
is add
these little
icons
that appear
to the side
of
for a
file type
and you know
actually
don't have
to do
anything
like
you can
do
a
nerd font
but like
they'll
work without
a nerd font
sometimes
I think
anyway
it's
it's a
really
nice
experience
and it's
compatible
like
all the flags
and stuff
are compatible
with
regular LS
so
it's not like
you have to
relearn
the tool
I love
things like
this
this
is
this is
great
more rust
tooling
is awesome
yeah
hopefully
it doesn't
hallucinate
what files
we have
hopefully not
next up
we have
the Google
calendar
for Slack
this one's
just as
niche
as the
two
that you
just shared
this is
such
a clutch
tool
most people
that I talked
to don't
know about
this
but
everyone
should
you
probably
use Google
calendar
and
you
probably
use Slack
and combining
them
helps
your team
so much
so
if you
have this
app
installed
one minute
before
your next meeting
it's
laxie
the zoom
link
so
a plus
there
and the second
is
if you're
in a call
it sets
your slack
status
to
I'm in a call
and if
you're
out of office
it sets
your slack
status
to
I'm out of office
and
oftentimes
when you're
working
remote
like
just
knowing
when
to expect
someone
to
like
circle back
with you
helps
you
plan
your own
like
next
move
and so
everyone
on the team
using
this
actually
genuinely
helps
this
ton
it's
a good tip
that's
baa
t
a
c
a
a
t



where
you
instead of
like
seeing a
long
list of
posts
and things
you
haven't
read
you
are
greeted
with
each
channel
the
messages
in it
and then
you can
swipe
left
or
right
to either
keep
red
or
keep
un
red
and
it seems like
a silly idea
but
it actually
works really
well
for like
working
through
a bunch of
different channels
oh my god
I'm trying
the next
report back
next up
we have
typefully
so
Donc avant de l'utiliser, on a drafté toutes les tweets que Jam m'a dit en un doc de notion.
Et ensuite on l'a mis dans la Twitter pour mettre un texte et on va dire que c'est tout le monde.
C'est comme si tu fais des choses comme Twitter, tu justes de voir comment ça va se passer.
Et donc maintenant on l'utilise, ça nous montre exactement comment ça va se passer et on peut commenter sur la ligne.
Et donc, un tool très néerrot, mais vraiment, vraiment cool.
Ouais, on a été utilisés en mode de buffer pour le podcast.
Je suis en buffer et ils vont ajouter des bouts de feu et de support bleu.
Donc je suis un bon customer.
Je veux que le bleu soit en X.
C'est pour l'opinion.
Ouais, il a l'air comme si beaucoup de programmers ont été en train de le faire.
Je vois Steve Klavin qui a fait une poste sur ça et j'ai aussi vu des programmers qui me suivent pour le refroid et faire des bugs.
Il y a peut-être des espèces.
C'est cool.
Donc ce n'est pas un outil que tu as utilisé, c'est un outil pour la pensée.
C'est un outil qui est très important pour les clients.








Je veux que tu aies des gens qui me donnent des conseils utiles.
Matt Wolf, je ne pense pas que j'ai entendu de lui. C'est un bon outil.
Il est cool.
J'ai bien compris.
C'est cool, ça termine par les conseils utiles cette semaine et l'épisode.
Merci pour venir dans Danny et pour parler de Jam.
Tu as un produit très cool sur tes mains et une communauté très vibrante.
Bonne chance pour le futur.
Merci beaucoup et merci beaucoup d'avoir me sur le site.
Je vous remercie, Danny, pour vous répéter.
Je suis très heureux de vous avoir sur le site.
Jam est un produit très cool.
Je vous aime les conseils et je vous aime votre mindset fondateur.
Je vous souhaite le meilleur.
Je suis sûr que vous serez délicatement successeux.
Bonne chance.
Merci beaucoup.